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Offline grimjester  
#1 Posted : Saturday, May 12, 2012 11:10:00 PM(UTC)
grimjester

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I feel that the offensive ability of characters outweighs defensive ability. As I understand it, the attack level is determined by the level of the skill used. However, armor class is determined by armor and dexterity.

This means that offensive ability goes up, but defense stays constant. An argument can be made that hitpoints represent defensive ability, but I don't think it's enough. Let me illustrate my point:

My character has an attack level of 4 with a broadsword. He's fighting 3 1st level attackers wielding the same weapon, with an attack level of 2. All stats are 3 and no armor is being worn. All armor class values are at 1. Let's assume that I won initiative every time.

At attack level 4 vs 1, my character will hit unless there is a fumble, doing an average of 4-5 points of damage, disabling one attacker. When they attack, they will hit on 3 or higher (66% chance to hit). If one of them hits, which is likely, my character will lose 4-5 hitpoints. If both hit, which is fairly probable, my character will lose 8-10 hitpoints on average.

The next round, my character disables another opponent (barring a fumble). Now, the last opponent attacks, and he has a 66% chance of inflicting an average of 4-5 points of damage. If he hits, which is probable, and both hit during the last round, my character is disabled with an average damage roll. If he doesn't hit, my character is still one hit away from defeat.

This encounter consisted of a rather rare 4th level hero in Elthos versus three common 1st level characters. It even assumed that initiative was won by the hero every time. The results described above are fine from a "realistic" point of view. However, I don't feel that these rules capture the feel of heroic fantasy. As is, a hero is too easy for anyone to damage, and even a small increase in the number of opponents can overwhelm a superior character.
Offline vbwyrde  
#2 Posted : Sunday, May 13, 2012 5:00:00 PM(UTC)
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Yes, that's by design. But remember, characters most often do wear armor, which absorbs damage. And additionally, the higher hit points at higher levels compensates heavily when you also include armor damage absorption. It behooves characters, therefore, to wear armor. I intend the system to be quasi-realistic. I want Heroism in my version of the Eltho to be a result of smart play, which means overcoming the odds by characters doing smart things. It is not intended to be a "Epic Heroic Fantasy" game. However, that said, I'm often impressed that given the rules the players more often than not have turned out to be Heroic - and that by playing smart and trying their best to give themselves the best odds they can, either by maneuvering, or equipping themselves intelligently, or conversely by taking risks for morally impressive reasons, and getting lucky. To me, risking defeat in the cause of good is what real Heroism is about. That's simply how I prefer my world. Other GMs will very definitely prefer different styles of play, and you can configure things as GM to suit your style as you see fit.

Another point you made mention of also pertains to the Armor Class is that it does not go up with levels like Attack Level which is based on Character Level. At first I had both going up with Level, but then found out that this was really too much boosting for Armor Class and would make the average number of melees for combat too many. Combats right now are calibrated so that they only should take a handful of melees for low level characters, maybe 4 or 5. The higher the level of the combatants, the longer the duration of the combat due to the increased amount of Hit Points that need to be whittled down. Increasing Armor Class with Character Level doubled the average number of melees and that was too much for my purposes so far as my world and GMing style is concerned. Again, GMs can adjust things to make combats last longer in various ways, if that is desired. You can also adjust combat to give your Player Characters 'A Heroic Advantage' very simply by affording them magical equipment more frequently than I do. That would certainly tilt the odds in their favor, if that's your GMing style. There are other ways as well, but that would be the simplest.
Offline grimjester  
#3 Posted : Wednesday, May 16, 2012 2:19:00 AM(UTC)
grimjester

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Originally Posted by: grimjester Go to Quoted Post
If, out of the box, your ODS is meant to be semi-realistic fantasy, then yes, no changes are needed. However, I think this brings up to other issues.

One issue is that a note should be made that this ODS is not initially geared for epic fantasy. People should know what they're getting. It's possible, as you've mentioned, to add skills, powers and items to make it epic though.


Well, out of the box I wanted it to be simply balanced, as in flat, as in no particular advantages to heroes or monsters. It's supposed to be mathematically neutral, so to say. Then tweaking comes along with other worlds as GMs modify for flavor. My first effort is toward getting the math to work with neutral system. Not that it's really balanced in the ultimate sense, though, as figuring out the actual total balance is beyond my pay grade, but for my purposes... that's the intent and so far it seems to be working out that way. Your observation that it is not epic fantasy is a good indication of that, so from my point of view that's a validation and pretty cool.

Also, not only can you add items, but you can tweak the world configuration itself, and make the entire world easier or harder.

Quote:

My second issue involves what I was originally thinking of when I made the initial post: Find a way to include the defender's weapon/shield/dodge skill as part of Armor Class. Granted, the system is currently simple, but potentially inaccurate from the perspective of story telling. Let me explain:

Let's say we have a 5th level mage and a 5th level fighter. Let's assume that their strength scores are the same and they have 15 hitpoints each. Neither is wearing armor, and they are fighting similar foes with melee weapons. The mage has spells and non-combat skills. The fighter has several combat skills. They are both getting hit by their similar foes. The fighter is no more likely to survive his wounds than the wizard. As far as dealing with damage received, they are equal.

In D&D, this is represented meaningfully by giving fighters more hitpoints per level. In other games, hitpoints never increase, but skills/talents/abilities cause the character to be hit less.


Note that the mage is a mystic and will not generally have as high a strength as the fighter, which means the fighters generally will have more life points on average than the mystics. This will not always be the case as some players will choose to not take Fighter class even when they can, but in general the idea is that Fighters are tougher than Mystics so far as Life Points are concerned, and I think it will usually work out that way.

Quote:


I'm not sure if this needs fixing, or if you'd want to fix it this way, but AC could be modified by the difference in a relevant weapon skill to the defender's DEX. So, if a player's weapon skill is 5 and his or her DEX is 3, the character's AC would increase by +2 when using that weapon as a defensive measure.

I'm sure that I'm not making myself clear, but I'm exhausted. I'll try editing this later.


That seems at first glance a little more complicated than I personally want the ODS to be, however, I could always add that as an optional rule. :) Thanks.

Edited by user Thursday, April 24, 2014 10:37:27 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline grimjester  
#4 Posted : Wednesday, May 16, 2012 8:41:00 AM(UTC)
grimjester

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Joined: 4/24/2014(UTC)
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If, out of the box, your ODS is meant to be semi-realistic fantasy, then yes, no changes are needed. However, I think this brings up to other issues.

One issue is that a note should be made that this ODS is not initially geared for epic fantasy. People should know what they're getting. It's possible, as you've mentioned, to add skills, powers and items to make it epic though.

My second issue involves what I was originally thinking of when I made the initial post: Find a way to include the defender's weapon/shield/dodge skill as part of Armor Class. Granted, the system is currently simple, but potentially inaccurate from the perspective of story telling. Let me explain:

Let's say we have a 5th level mage and a 5th level fighter. Let's assume that their strength scores are the same and they have 15 hitpoints each. Neither is wearing armor, and they are fighting similar foes with melee weapons. The mage has spells and non-combat skills. The fighter has several combat skills. They are both getting hit by their similar foes. The fighter is no more likely to survive his wounds than the wizard. As far as dealing with damage received, they are equal.

In D&D, this is represented meaningfully by giving fighters more hitpoints per level. In other games, hitpoints never increase, but skills/talents/abilities cause the character to be hit less.

I'm not sure if this needs fixing, or if you'd want to fix it this way, but AC could be modified by the difference in a relevant weapon skill to the defender's DEX. So, if a player's weapon skill is 5 and his or her DEX is 3, the character's AC would increase by +2 when using that weapon as a defensive measure.

I'm sure that I'm not making myself clear, but I'm exhausted. I'll try editing this later.
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