logo

Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Options
View
Go to last post Go to first unread
Offline vbwyrde  
#1 Posted : Sunday, November 30, 2014 7:21:19 PM(UTC)
vbwyrde

Rank: Administration

Groups: Administrators, Registered
Joined: 4/18/2014(UTC)
Posts: 312
Man
United States

In the current One Die System (the Elthos default for the ODS) each of the three requisites are rolled with a 1d6 and this is true for all races. Some races are given minimums and maximums beyond which they can not exceed. For example a human can be 1 to 6 in Strength, Wisdom and Dexterity, but a Troll can not have greater than a 3 Wisdom, and not less than a 4 Strength. Bonuses are tied to the Requisite, and so a Troll with a 6 strength does +2 Damage. A kobold with a 1 strength does -2 damage. That has worked out reasonably well in most cases as most opponents have been roughly human sized.

However, this does not take into account the fact that some races are far stronger than humans. Like an elephant. Or a giant. These races should have the ability to have far higher strength than a 6. Some questions arise...

Should each requisite have it's own dice option? Or should all three use the same dice?

I'm thinking of a hypothetical where the monster is, lets say, a Giant, with a low Dexterity and low Wisdom. It might roll different dice for it's requisites as follows:

Strength Dice: 3d6; Min: 7, Max: 18
Wisdom Dice: 1d6; Min: 1, Max: 6
Dexterity Dice: 1d6; Min: 1, Max: 4

The Requisite Bonuses are another question. Right now it is:

1 = -2
2 = -1
3 = 0
4 = 0
5 = +1
6 + +2
(which implies ...)
7 = +3
8 = +4
9 = +5
10 = +6
...
18 = +14

... However, in thinking about this I see a problem. Or what I think might be a problem, but I'm not sure.

Typically when you have a 3d6 system the bonuses are going to be spread out with 3 being the lowest end of the spectrum and the spread might look like this:

3 = -4
4 = -3
5 = -2
6 = -2
7 = -1
8 = -1
9 = 0
10 = 0
11 = 0
12 = 0
13 = +1
14 = +1
15 = +2
16 = +2
17 = +3
18 = +4

So in the case where our base for humans is 1d6 does it make sense that a Giant with a 3d6 roll for Strength should use the 1d6 bonus scale? I'm on the fence about this question. Curious to hear thoughts on it.

All of which begs another question ... can their be negative requisites so you could have a -3? I think not. However, the solution to that might be to fractionalize below 1.

... etc
.7 = -5
.8 = -4
.9 = -3

However, I don't plan to implement that this pass. A low Requisite of 1 is probably sufficient for now.

Thoughts?
Offline thegrimjester  
#2 Posted : Sunday, November 30, 2014 9:17:07 PM(UTC)
thegrimjester

Rank: Newbie

Groups: Registered
Joined: 8/1/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8
United States
Location: Yonkers

Your first method for determining bonuses is correct. The second method will create a lot of giants who have the same strength bonus as the average man.

Instead of multiple dice, why not just assign a giant's strength by rolling a 1d6 + X (x is the bonus for the race, and it can be negative)? For a giant race that is 12' tall on average, I would give them a +5 to strength. This will automatically create min & max strength values of 6 to 11. Adjust the numbers to suit your vision, but in my mind, the weakest giant is a match for the strongest man.

Stats should never go negative. If they do as the result of a modifier, it should reset to 1.
Offline vbwyrde  
#3 Posted : Sunday, November 30, 2014 10:35:35 PM(UTC)
vbwyrde

Rank: Administration

Groups: Administrators, Registered
Joined: 4/18/2014(UTC)
Posts: 312
Man
United States

Originally Posted by: thegrimjester Go to Quoted Post
Your first method for determining bonuses is correct. The second method will create a lot of giants who have the same strength bonus as the average man.

Instead of multiple dice, why not just assign a giant's strength by rolling a 1d6 + X (x is the bonus for the race, and it can be negative)? For a giant race that is 12' tall on average, I would give them a +5 to strength. This will automatically create min & max strength values of 6 to 11. Adjust the numbers to suit your vision, but in my mind, the weakest giant is a match for the strongest man.

Stats should never go negative. If they do as the result of a modifier, it should reset to 1.


Ok. We're on the same page then about not using the bonus structure for 3d6 but simply applying the upscaling from the 1d6 system. As for your point about adding the modifier... Hmmm... not a bad suggestion. That would be a simpler solution, though possibly at the expense of invalidating (or inhibiting) a multi-dice requisite system in a future phase of the application. Let's say, just for discussion sake, that we bypass your suggestion for the moment, though it may well turn out to be the preferred solution, and we go with a multi-dice requisite solution for now. What I'm wondering is, in that scenario, should all the requisites be rolled on the same scale? Or should it be selectable by the individual requisite? So for example, I have Mountain Giants that are a strong, but clumsy and stupid race. Clearly I want them to roll 3d6 for Strength. Not so clear is if I want to roll 3d6 for the other two requisites. Lets say I did, so that they all roll 3d6. I could do it this way:

Strength Dice: 3d6; Min: 7, Max: 18
Wisdom Dice: 3d6; Min: 1, Max: 6
Dexterity Dice: 3d6; Min: 1, Max: 4

Hmmm... Yup. Your solution is making more sense as I go over this. It's much easier to manage, and a cleaner, clearer solution.

Strength Dice: 1d6 +5 ; Min: 6, Max: 11 (+7 damage)
Wisdom Dice: 1d6; Min: 1, Max: 6
Dexterity Dice: 1d6; Min: 1, Max: 4

Works for me. Thanks Chris. You da man. Cool


Offline vbwyrde  
#4 Posted : Friday, December 12, 2014 6:57:32 PM(UTC)
vbwyrde

Rank: Administration

Groups: Administrators, Registered
Joined: 4/18/2014(UTC)
Posts: 312
Man
United States

Ok that has been implemented and I'm not on to the next phase of this plan. That is the Allocations method which lets players allocate points to their Characters rather than roll them. The amount of Allocation allowed will be decided by the GM with a default value provided by the system. I'm going to go with 1d6 (default), 2d6, 3d6 and 4d6. These will provide the appropriate bell jar curves and allow GMs to configure the Race Requisites to roll from Very Flat (1d6) or very nuanced (4d6).

The attached spreadsheet contains my analysis. The spreadsheet covers two aspects. 1. Allocations and 2. Conversions.

1. Allocations

These must be different values for different Dice Configurations. Each of the Dice Configs of course would require a different allocation value.

Example: 1d6

For 1d6, the GM could allow for 11 points to be allocated to the three Requisites Strength, Wisdom, Dexterity, or 60% of the total possible Requisite Points which is 18 points total. This allows the Player to give a 6 to one requisite. They then have 5 points to give to the two others. A 3 and a 2. This means that if they want to have a +2 Bonus in one requisite, they must accept taking a -1 Bonus in one of the other Requisites. Of course this will obviously curtail what possible classes Allocation Characters can choose from. To make things even I decided to have a percent of the total determine how many points are allowed to be allocated. The GM will pick accordingly the Percent Value. So my World of Elthos will allow Players to Allocate at 80%. This means they can Allocate 14 points (I will be rounding when I multiply the .8 * Total Possible Requisite Points). This then allows the Player to have a +2, and a +1 which is a total of +3. Given that I've used this analysis to rationalize the entire spread of Bonus Points so that it's even across all four Dice Configs, I think this will work out very nicely.

Example: 4d6

The total possible is 72 Requisite Points, and at 80% the player can Allocate 58 points assigning 4 to 24 to the three Requisites. This allows them to get a maximum of +8 bonus on the three requisites.

ST: 24... +5
WS: 22... +3
DX: 12... +0

See the spreadsheet for further details, and to fool around with possible alternate values. You should change the yellow highlighted fields to test things out.

2. Conversions.

The question came up pretty quickly - what happens if a GM wants to change the Dice Config for Races after they've already started their world and have been running it for a while. To do so would require that existing characters be modified to incorporate the new Dice Config. That's not as difficult as it sounds (and also opens the door to the possibility of Inter-World Transfers of Characters, which I am generally on record as being against on the grounds that the Conversions of requisites would be too problematic and open a can of worms - I'm still against it on other grounds, but this certainly comes half way toward saying "Ok" on migrations). Basically if I am going up from 1d6 to 3d6 I simply multiply the existing requisite by 3. The new Bonus value is relative to the old one in the new system. Going the other way, I simply divide.

The problem is that if I convert back and forth consecutively from higher to lower Dice Configs some characters may have their requisites shifted a little bit when they come back to the original value. For example after a few conversions a character who originally had a 17 strength might wind up with a 16. This could potentially cause someone a tiny bit of agita at some point. But I don't think it's a huge problem, or that big a deal. I can simply let the GMs know that this might happen in some cases. In an advanced version of this I can keep track of the original Requisites for every character and go back to that again on converting back to the original Dice Config, but at the moment this seems like overkill and would be a bit complicated to program for. I think allowing a little bit of shift is ok. "The world's core physics has changed, and changed back again - as a consequence some characters have slightly altered requisites, but no bonus values should have changed."

Again, take a look at the spreadsheet for more details.

The three Modes I think I want to offer the GM are:

MODE: Roll Strict.
The Player simply has to keep whatever they rolled, but they can roll up to three times and pick their favorite to play (or play more than one).

MODE: Roll & Allocate the Rolls
After Rolling allow the Player to redistribute the value of their rolls to whatever requisites they want.

MODE: Allocate X points to the Character.
The Player gets a specified number of points to allocate (no risk of rolling low, no chance of rolling high) which will exclude some classes from their options, but give them a character that will not be too weak. If the GM provides enough class selections in the middle range most players should be satisfied.

GM Selection Options will be on a World by World basis:

1. What Dice Configuration for Races: 1d6 2d6 3d6 4d6?
2. What Mode? Strict | Roll & Allocate | Allocate | Roll Strict OR Roll & Allocate Rolls OR Allocate X Points
Strict: No Options Required
Roll & Allocate Rolls : No Options Required as the Allocation are the rolls not a specific number of points
Allocation: What percent of the total possible requisites to give to Players? 50% - 100%

Thoughts?

Edited by user Friday, December 12, 2014 7:46:14 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

File Attachment(s):
Requisite_Allocations_Upload.xls (45kb) downloaded 2 time(s).

You cannot view/download attachments. Try to login or register.
Offline vbwyrde  
#5 Posted : Wednesday, December 17, 2014 12:33:56 PM(UTC)
vbwyrde

Rank: Administration

Groups: Administrators, Registered
Joined: 4/18/2014(UTC)
Posts: 312
Man
United States

PLANNED CHANGES FOR THE REQUISITE SELECTION OPTION
==================================================

MODE: Roll Strict.
The Player simply has to keep whatever they rolled, but they can roll up to three times and pick their favorite to play (or play more than one).

MODE: Roll & Allocate
After Rolling allow the Player to redistribute the value of their rolls to whatever requisites they want.

MODE: Allocate
The Player gets a specified number of points to allocate (no risk of rolling low, no chance of rolling high) which will exclude some classes from

their options, but give them a character that will not be too weak. If the GM provides enough class selections in the middle range most players

should be satisfied.

World Config Settings:

Race Generation Dice [RaceGenDice]
- Pick Dice For Character Gen
1d6 - show Requisite Bonus Chart
2d6 - show Requisite Bonus Chart
3d6 - show Requisite Bonus Chart
4d6 - show Requisite Bonus Chart

Player Character Gen Methods [PlayerCharGenMethod]:
1 = Roll Random - Strict
- Number of Re-Rolls allowed
[NumReRollsAllowed]
2 = Roll & Allocate the Rolls
- Number of Re-Rolls allowed
[NumReRollsAllowed]
3 = Allocate Points
- Pick Points Allowed (Ranges Vary depending on Dice for Character Gen Selection)
[NumAllocationPointsAllowed]

New World_Config Variables

RaceGenDice
PlayerCharGenMethod
NumReRollsAllowed
NumAllocationPointsAllowed

REF_REQUISITEBONUS

/*
Revamp this table:

[ID]
,[Name] 1d6, 2d6, etc
,[Requisite] 1, 2, 3, etc
,[Bonus] -2, -1, etc
,[WorldDefault] 0

1 1d6 1 -2 0
2 1d6 2 -1 0
3 1d6 3 0 0
4 1d6 4 0 0
5 1d6 5 1 0
6 1d6 6 2 0
7 2d6 2 -3 0
8 2d6 3 -2 0
9 2d6 4 -2 0
etc

Deafult is 1d6

Each world will get option to select what dice system for requisites
in the REF_WorldConfig.

This value once selected can not be changed in the world without changing
the dice for all characters in the world. Problematic. For now, once selected
during world creation it can not be changed. A popup must be shown for this
selection with information regarding this choice.

To change the dice values of existing chaacters would require examining the
requisites and mapping them to the new requisite scale.

1d6 -> 3d6 would require multiplying the requisites by 3

1 -> 3
2 -> 6
3 -> 9
4 -> 12
5 -> 15
6 -> 18

3d6 -> 1d6 would require dividing the requisites by 3 but with rounding applied
2 -> 1

*/

CREATE CONVERSION METHOD IN ELTHOSCOMMONCODE TO GO FROM ONE DICE SYSTEM TO THE OTHER, TRANSLATING CHARACTERS BACK AND FORTH.
THIS WILL REQUIRE GOING THROUGH ALL CHARACTERS IN THE WORLD AND UPDATING THEIR REQUISITE VALUEs TO THE REVIZED VALUEs.
MAKE SURE TO LET THE GM KNOW THAT SOME REQUISITES MAY CHANGE WHEN COMING BACK TO THE ORIGINAL DICE SYSTEM, BUT IF THEY DO IT
WILL NOT BE BY MUCH AND SHOULD NOT EFFECT THE BONUS VALUE (OR IF IT DOES, THEN THEY SHOULD SHRUG AND TELL THE PLAYERS 'COSMIC FORCES').


CalcRequisiteBonus()
'--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'-- WIP - THIS METHOD NEEDS TO BE CHANGED IN ORDER TO ACCOMODATE THE NEW MULTI DICE REQUISITE
' OPTIONS FOR 2D6, 3D6, ETC.
' IF THE REQUISITE IS HIGHER THAN THE MAX REQUISITE (DUE TO A REQUISITE BONUS BEING ADDED)
' 1. FIND THE HIGHEST REQUISITE VALUE FOR THE WORLDS REQUISITE SET (EX - 2D6 = 12
' 2. FIND THE BONUS VALUE FOR THAT REQUISITE
' 3. FOR EVERY POINT ABOVE THE MAX REQUISITE ADD AN ADDITIONAL POINT TO THE BONUS
'--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ManageWorlds.aspx.vb -> CreateNewWorld()
- REMOVE '== REF_RequisiteBonus - SECTION - NO LONGER WILL BE NEEDED AS EACH WORLD WILL NOT HAVE IT'S OWN REQ BONUS CHART.

RollCharacterRequsites()
- THIS NEEDS TO BE UPDATED TO GET THE WORLDCONFIG VALUES FOR THE DICE

ManageAdvGroup_Generate.aspx.vb -> cmdGenGAdvGroup_Click()
- THIS NEEDS TO BE UPDATED TO GET THE WORLDCONFIG VALUES FOR THE DICE

CharacterGuildClass.aspx.vb -> cmdFixRequisites_Click()
- THIS NEEDS TO BE CHECKED TO CONFIRM THAT NOTHING IS AMISS WITH THIS CODE

CharacterRace.aspx.vb -> cmdRollByRace_Click()
- THIS NEEDS TO BE UPDATED TO GET THE WORLDCONFIG VALUES FOR THE DICE



Users browsing this topic
Guest (2)
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

Powered by YAF 2.1.1 | YAF © 2003-2019, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 0.313 seconds.